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Richard

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 #1 
Hi Ross,

My question is about starting the backswing with the shoulders.  What part of the shoulder starts the turn?

Is it the outside of the shoulder pushing laterally toward the chin?
Is it the whole shoulder moving forward (toward the target line) and then rotating around?
Is it trying to touch the logo on the shirt to the chin?
Is it something else?

I hope this is not too much detail and paralysis by analysis.

Thanks in advance

Mark
Ross

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 #2 
Hi Mark
If you practice the Large Muscle Drill (standing upright), you can get the idea and feeling.  Some think of the front shoulder turning under the chin.  Some use the back shoulder to pull back.  What you want is the shoulders to turn around the spine... how ever you can get that done!  The shoulders move the arms/club.

Ross

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Richard

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 #3 
Thank you
Peterswont

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 #4 
Hi there. This is my first post here. I am having a bit of trouble transferring the large muscle drill to the actual swing. What is helping is to slowly start getting into the setup position after a few drill swings. Lower the arms a bit do it again. Rinse and repeat.
Ross

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 #5 
The purpose of the drill is to use the Shoulders only on the takeaway/backswing, while not moving the lower body. Then, on the downswing, the lower body can take over and unwind the potential the shoulders created.  This "resistance" is very important for many reasons.  The average golfer will let the weight shift to the back foot, and the hips rotate and the arms lift etc.  These moves are not repeatable and cause many problems.  The first move of the Large Muscles Drill will teach the body to work from "top down"... the shoulders moving first and the lower body later in the backswing if needed.  If you just practice over and over, it will re-train the body about what starts the backswing and the correct sequence.  This take time.  It will become more and more natural feeling as you practice.  It will also be a confidence builder since the Shoulders rotating is very repeatable vs. the hands/arms etc taking over.
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Peterswont

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 #6 
Thanks Ross. It is working for me. It was the real breakthrough exercise for me.
Ross

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 #7 
Great Peter.  If the shoulders take control, big power and more consistency.
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CMSgt5

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 #8 
Re shoulders starting the backswing:  Am not a good golfer; started in my late 50's after knee replacement, torn Achilles tendon and calf muscle, and shoulder surgery.  Usually shoot in low 80s; hcp hovers around ten.  Am only 70, so I think I can get 5 strokes off that hcp; BUT, big problem i have is consistency off the tee and am looking forward to using your swing method.  Back to the shoulders:  I do not feel relaxed and actually sense that I turn the left shoulder under the chin, whereas the right shoulder has not rotated equally.  I measured my shoulder turn during a golf swing, and it was less than 30*; then I positioned a club across the shoulders and rotated 90 degrees when not swinging a golf club. So, I can turn; it is just that I kinda freeze and don't.   Someone suggested to turn like an old man turning over in bed, and that helped a bit, but still I freeze that right shoulder over the ball.  Maybe it's mental.  As Yogi said, "Golf is 90% mental, the rest is in your head."  I think your long-time golfers will not be able to relate to my swing dilemma.
Ross

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 #9 
If I understand you correctly, you're right handed and feel you're turning the front (left) under your chin, but the back (right) shoulder does not move equal distance. 

My first thought is you are not turning your shoulders around your spine. Instead, you are pushing the front shoulder down, causing the back shoulder to go up.  The shoulders can't turn very far this way and it really feels bound up.

If you focus on trying to pull the back shoulder behind you towards the spine, you'll feel more freedom and get the benefit of a real shoulder wind up.

One other way is to stand upright, with your arms/club straight out in front of you.  Then turn your shoulders around your spine, like the backswing, using the shoulders to move the arms/club.  It is usually much easier to do this standing vertical, then bent over at setup... which leads me to this...

...if you are bending too much at setup, the shoulders can't turn very much at all and it will give you back problems.  Watch my Athletic Setup video to learn the proper posture and see if it does not help your backswing.

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CMSgt5

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 #10 
Thanks.  Your 2nd paragraph is an accurate description of my muddled golf swing.  I also noticed today on the range that I have been hesitant to load against that right titanium knee in the back swing.  Tomorrow, 0830 tee time, I will concentrate on pulling that right shoulder back and try to get the feeling of loading the right leg so that there is something to swing with other than disconnected arms.  And, I'll look at the athletic set up video.
Ross

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 #11 
Great. Hopefully the shoulders will turn easier.

Now, don't confuse other instruction with my method.  We do not "load up" the back (right) leg.  We keep 60% (or more) on the front leg, while using the back leg to keep us there.  The back leg helps "brace".  There might be a little tension in the back leg, but we do not slide or shift weight there.

Ross

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DJC2650

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 #12 
This has been probably answered already but I was a bit confused about this.  Before I was starting the swing as a "shoulder swing, hands quite, good grip pressure" by pushing down on the left shoulder and the shoulders both rotating like they are being pushed backwards.

I was also rotating my upper spine below my shoulders and keeping my hips restricted.  

Sounds like I should restrict everything under my shoulders- at least initially -  and et back initially restrict too) on down to hips.

Only have tried this a few times and takes some getting used too. 
Ross

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 #13 
First, the front shoulder does not push "down"*, we want it to turn around the spine... or the back shoulder can pull back towards the spine.  Think of this... if you stand totally upright, then turn your shoulders around your spine, THAT IS HOW THEY MOVE.  The problem is when we setup for different clubs, the shoulders turn on different planes, but ALWAYS AROUND THE SPINE, on the angle the spine is on, for the shot.

Yes, the shoulders need to get a "head start" to create big power.  We want to coil from "Top" down (on the backswing).  The shoulders move first, then the shoulders turn the hips a little (but the weight stays forward at least 60%).

* HINT:  Many times if the shoulder is pushing down, it is because the "chin" is in the way.  This can be caused sometimes, by focusing at the ball through glasses.  You must lift the chin up and look down your nose, so the shoulders can turn underneath the chin without the face moving off the ball.  Tom Lehman is a good example of someone who sets up with the chin lifted a bit.

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DJC2650

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 #14 
Thanks Ross.  I was confused by my old 'one piece take away' where the arms where always in front of the chest.  
DJC2650

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 #15 
Ross, another question or two -  I think these are answered on the forums but I could not locate them too quickly.

Set up -  I get the template set up with my arms in front.  Drop the template and sit down to my stance.  Next, I pinch the elbows together and do a slight forward press.

Wondering, for the right arm, can I relax that side slightly so that the right shoulder is slightly lower as it is lower on the grip?  Seems like this grounds the club better.  Now, I set up with shoulders square.

Going to try this on the range later today but wanted to ask since, for me, set up is about or more important than the swing. 

I still want to turn horizontally to how much I have to bend to the ball at set up.

Last, could you clarify too the pinching of the elbows at set up and in the swing?  I think this keeps me from doing a lot of hinging of the wrists and controls my old habit of turning the forearms too.

However, I find it difficult to pinch the elbows at the top of the backswing when my right elbow is folding a bit.

Also, just reviewed the video on the shoulder turn.  Really explains it well when you are in an upright stance and turning straight back and then doing the same thing with the hands a bit lower and then again when you are more in a golf stance.  I was still rocking my shoulders a bit like a chip shot at first and then turning horizontally.  Better to just turn the shoulders straight away around the spine.

Thanks Ross -  Dan

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